Episode 6: Danielle Strickland

Episode 6: Danielle Strickland

 0:22 Adam Cresswell

 Hello again, everyone. My name is Adam Creswell and this is winter is coming. This is a podcast exploring how we go from housing crisis to housing justice. And we are just diving into the second half, volume two of this first season. We've recorded a few episodes that came out in October and November, and now we're diving into the second half of this season season. So if you're joining us for the first time, welcome. We're glad you're listening. This is a podcast that is supported and sponsored by the amazing people at Trinity United Church in Kitchener who are a community of Christians who have made it their primary mission as a church not to get people in seats on Sunday mornings or to fill the collection plate as full as possible for their own works. But their primary mission is supporting affordable housing and supporting housing justice. And they have partnered with us at The Hub. The Hub Community Network is a youth and young adult network that lives to connect young people with the liberating love of Christ and help them build a more just and inclusive world. And so we're partnering together to bring these conversations where we're exploring this topic of housing justice. And we are looking at it through the lens, particularly of where many of us are the land that we're living on, which you might know now as Kitchener Waterloo on your Google Maps or your Apple Maps. But this is the traditional territory that we're coming from here as hosts of the Haudenoshone, the Nishinaabe and neutral peoples who for thousands of years stewarded this land in ways that we have a lot to learn from in terms of sustainability and community. And for those of us who come from Jesus traditions of what it is to be a neighbor and what it is to live as a community. So we are going through these conversations, and today I'm super excited to have a guest, Danielle Strickland, who is a global social justice advocate, pastor, speaker, theologian. 1s Works in a bunch of different amazing spaces, including Brave Global and Amplify Peace and Women Speaking, infinitum which is this really amazing discipleship community. And particularly what we're excited to talk about today is Danielle's work with MB Homes, which is In My Backyard. 2s Danielle, we're super grateful for you to make time amongst your busy schedule with all those organizations, with your own work, with your own podcast as well, and all the stuff that you're doing. So thanks for making time today to chat with us.

 3:14 Danielle Strickland

 Hey, thanks, Adam. I'm privileged to be here. What a great topic. I can't wait to talk more.

 3:19 Adam Cresswell

Yeah. So I guess usually how we like to begin since we have people kind of coming from all different walks of life and all different kind of entry points with the topic of housing justice, we've talked with federal MPs and municipal politicians and supportive housing workers and systems engineers who are working on changing the systems of housing. Can you share with us a little bit how you kind of 2s came to the topic of what we call housing justice, which is sort of our way to talk about a catch all term, to say it's more than necessarily just affordable housing. It's more than just grooves over people's heads. It's about a different kind of way of life, a different kind of society that we can live in that has housing truly enshrined as a human right. How did you kind of first come into contact with this topic, maybe personally or in your work?

 4:16 Danielle Strickland

 Yeah. So I spent 23 years as an officer in the Salvation Army, mostly living and working among people who would struggle with vulnerabilities that make them susceptible to a lack of housing, lack of support, lack of connection, lack of family. And I used to believe, I think, like everybody, you know, if we could just get people into homes or into reasonable housing, 2s the problem would be solved. And then I realized that actually it's a lot more complex than that and there's a lot of intersectionality around affordable housing. And then also, I think, what brings me to imb so what kind of introduced me to this idea that safe, affordable housing is paramount to the other possibilities opening up for people, including like, wellness and health and 1s freedom from various addictions or exploitation. So a lot of people that I've journey with specifically around addiction, for example, 1s I used to believe, like many people, that addiction is what causes houselessness. And then sort of got this education that houselessness is often the first thing and addiction follows. And same with mental health. I didn't really realize until I was sort of well along the journey of walking with people, trying to understand what the implications were that houselessness is so pivotal to so many other issues. Same with I spent a lot of years walking along women, trying to get them out of sexual exploitation. 1s Similar thing even in, you know, hostels or like those sort of things, like when there isn't spaces or reasonable places for women to go, then exploitation is the easiest, most accessible thing and they get trapped and stuck in these cycles that they can't get out of. So I think all along the way, my journey has taken me to all these different places and I've done all kinds of different things to try to 1s not just fix, but sort of help as much as I could. And even the things that I did that were trying to help often just showed that there's something bigger that needed to happen. And then when COVID hit, everybody was stuck inside. I think 1s that could in their own homes. If you had a home, you were stuck inside, 2s and if you didn't, you're were just stuck. And I think that what that did, what that crisis did, was also show something that I also had a sneaky suspicion about for many years. And that is that the way we've set up our lives. 1s So the way that we do life in terms of nuclear cut off, autonomous, independent, you know, don't need anybody, 1s is actually really sick, and it causes disease inside of those places as well. So then we just, for the first time, I think, came to a collective understanding, like, oh, maybe this suburban dream of autonomous, independent living is not working for the people in it, not just for the people out of it. And it was then that was the impulse for me to say, okay, look, we have got to rethink how we've arranged things socially, not just for the benefit of those people who can't access it, but yes, please, but also for the benefit of those people who are in it, because it's not working for anybody right now.

 7:50 Adam Cresswell

Yeah. 1s That's an amazing way to start to kind of hone in on like you talked about something that can be really big and almost seem overwhelming. But we talked about with Kirsten Wright who's a systems engineer working with Leadership Waterloo Region is understanding that 2s this isn't just a matter of there are some people who have had particular struggles and that narrow scope of people. We just need to be able to find ways for them to join what's already happening. But actually looking at this idea of the way we set it up, where at worst, I probably don't know my neighbor, at best I know them, and they're probably a lot like me because we've set things up so that they're probably somewhere along my income bracket if they live near me. And the loss of public spaces, the loss of the commons, the fact that most places to go as a teenager to go and interact in a crowd was like the mall food court. So somewhere where we're going to be sold stuff and not having a real investment in places to share community, to get to know people. And so I think that it's really good to kind of 1s zone in on that and understand that this is a problem that isn't just related to we don't have enough walls and roofs for people who need it, but it goes much deeper than that.

 9:15 Danielle Strickland

Adam I remember when this became glaringly obvious to me. So I had spent many years in apartments, so I lived in the downtown East Side for five years of Vancouver. Lots of complicated problems there. Mostly the major problem in the downtown East Side is not a drug addiction problem, although that's the most presenting problem. The deepest problem is a lack of belonging, which over 75% of the downtown East Side residents come from foster care. People don't know that, but. 1s So it really is a deep abandonment, a sense of all kinds of things. Then I moved to Australia, where I lived in a lower socioeconomic, mostly around newcomers, but again in an apartment. So my son was about nine when he actually lived in his first house. And it wasn't our house. We we get we got sent to this house. It belonged to the Soviet Army, but it was our house to use, and we had a backyard for the first time. So his whole life, he played in parks with all of his friends, like we did park time. We never had a backyard. So he got this backyard. It was pretty sizeable. It was in Edmonton, alberta. Had a fire pit in it. And he went running around just like an 89 year old. He's just like, Woohoo, we've got a backyard. You're like woohoo. And he's, like, jumping around. And then he comes to me, and it's just like this realization dawns on him. And he looks at me and he goes, this is amazing, right, mom? And I said, well, it is a big backyard. And he looks at me and he goes, yeah, but who will I play with here? Yeah. And it was such a good moment of just like this kid realizing that all of this was his. But how lonely is this when all of the spaces that he had played in before were shared spaces? And even that idea of and so that's really where a lot of the principles are. What we call the building blocks of this project called In My Backyard comes from that idea of being a child and understanding that what happens naturally as a child in terms of dreaming and playing and sharing, 1s is actually maybe what we need to rediscover in order to live differently.

 11:17 Adam Cresswell

Yeah. As someone who works with multiple youth groups, I can say that it doesn't just keep me young and up with the hip lingo and the tik tok. But it really is really a beautiful thing that I think especially for those who are listening, that are coming from churches or kind of community of faith organizations, being able to recognize that we have a ton to learn from that. In many translations, we hear Jesus talk about faith like a child and the ability that that doesn't just have to mean this idea of 1s an innocence or necessarily a naivete, but actually, 1s what does it look like to remove ourselves from the way we've been conditioned to think this is the way things have to be arranged. 1s And again, also which kids do so much better than us is 1s to be willing to share community, whether they know someone or not, whether they are like the playground is a great leveling ground in so many ways. Can you talk a little bit more about 1s maybe 1s how MB Homes started and how you got involved with it in the first place? I think we have a lot of people who are listening who know maybe a little bit about the model or about the organization 1s and would love to hear the story of it.

 12:46 Danielle Strickland

Yeah, sure. So it's kind of got two trajectories the story. So one is mine and it is having all kinds of different experience of creating non low income, not for profit housing projects. Like I said, coming from those situations where I've journeyed with people and been part of that pain of that thing. I served for a couple of years in Los Angeles where the houseless 1s crisis there is unbelievable. It's actually unbelievable. And I remember even in Los Angeles, because of course it doesn't get winter like Canada. So the urgency of trying to help people is quite as high in Canada when people start dying, which they do every year, but it's usually when people start dying of houselessness from the cold that people start getting urgent about their responses, at least even if they're Band Aid responses. But in Los Angeles, that doesn't really happen because it doesn't really get that kind of cold. 1s And as I was walking around, like, skid Row is a famous place in Los Angeles, and just going like, there's so many things that make this a crisis, but also, like, unsafe, right? Because anyway, there's all these things. So I was like, why couldn't we just invite a couple of people to come into our backyard? Even if it's just a Band Aid, to say, like, what if we started here? And then from here you have an address, you have accessible toilet and washroom, you have safety, no one's coming into the police aren't going to take your stuff every month and call it a day, all that stuff. So I was like, what if we just did that? You're going to be kind of very naive, but also, like, what if, like, trying to get my child tapped? And then, like you said, our preconceptions of homelessness or houseless people are often we see that stereotyped super high barrier person and go, oh, that's what a houseless person. And we really haven't dirty with people with children, people who are literally

  14:31 Adam Cresswell

families. Yeah. And we just don't have an idea. There's a spectrum of what we mean by house with people. So I did experiment with that just personally, just a little tiny bit of offering a place that was safe. And then I moved unexpectedly a little sooner than I wanted out of Los Angeles. And so this idea of like, what if we offered part of the solution? 2s Was kind of already embedded in me. Also, what was embedded in me, because I'm a Jesus follower, is this deep desire to follow Jesus with my life, not just with my brain. And so one of the things that is really key to my own life is that my life should look somehow different from the dominant value, dominant cultural value use that are around me. And this is one of the things that Jesus did so well, is he provoked not only discussion, but also, like, a lot of really questions and even some resistance just simply by the way he lived. So it wasn't just like he was condemning people. He would just live differently. And people go, hey, hey, are you allowed to do that? Is that okay? Yeah. So I want to live that way in a provocative way. Like, I want my life to sort of ask its own questions so that's already so this is happening inside of me. And then I'm at a camp and I meet the mighty trio, who is Alicia, Wilson and Siobhan and Timo. They're the other three partners of Imbi. And they are also Jesus followers, but, like, not really fitting into the church in the way that it is. They want to live differently. They've already sort of experimented with some tiny house. Timos and Construction, alicia and Shavon have been part of sort of alternative community. So they're just like, what if we could use this tiny house energy, which is like, you know, now we're just creating, like, these elaborately, super expensive tiny houses and renting them out at exorbitant prices in our backyards for more commercial enterprise. You know, this is like, Ah. So we're like, what if we took this tiny house capacity, this energy around it, and we could somehow harness it to do both of those things, to model what it means to live differently in the world and to actually address the deep issues of people who've bought into suburban dominant cultural values to offer them a way out of that and then to offer people who are vulnerable to so much horrible, you know, realities living in those realities because of the lack of affordable housing. What if those two world, actually those two needs came together and met an even greater need? And so that became imbi. And Imbi is an idea before it's anything else. Of course it's a desire. I hope it's a bit of a prophetic utterance, a calling, definitely.

 17:16 Danielle Strickland

 And then we really pray it becomes a movement.

 17:19 Adam Cresswell

Yeah, 2s you touched on this a couple of times now. 1s This vision of understanding that it's a liberative process for everyone involved, that it's not this paternalistic kind of colonial charity model of we have some people who have and will and they'll be able to give a little bit to those who are have not. But understanding that to be able to be extricated from those, you had that suburban capitalist system that shuts us in on ourselves and out from other people, as well as being able to bring this good news to people who are in need of, like you said, of a place to call their own. We talked about in our last conversation with Gemma Ricker, who's a supportive housing worker, and that in support of housing, there's this beautiful thing that happens when folks who have been targeted or have been susceptible to being a street involved in ways that they don't want have a place for their stuff. And the beauty that comes with just knowing, like, this is my this is my room, and this is my and this is a key to my room. And so we were talking about that in the context of supportive housing and how that can be a blessing that steps up from the emergency response of a shelter. And I think that's something that we can't overstate is to be able to say this is not just about 1s a warm place and a roof, although that is certainly critical. But it's about the dignity that we would want for ourselves, that we would want for our kids, that we would want for our friends to be able to have a space of your own and then not one that is shut off from others but actually gets to share in community. So I just really love understanding that. And to me, that is that beautiful example of what people often call kind of a third way that Jesus 1s finds and invites us into, which is liberating for everyone involved.

19:30 Danielle Strickland

Yeah. And that's kind of what happened also in my own personal journey of we have an open house in the sense that we always have people live with us. We feel like and again, this is this you said this beautifully, learning so much from our First Nations brothers and sisters, where they really have taught me at least about stewardship over ownership. So one of the great dominant values of our lives, of course, is ownership. And sort of the more you own, the better. And even just sort of that original colonial conquest kind of mentality of like, it's mine. And we see this in the way that we view even backyards where they're fenced off. There's no do not enter. Like, this is not your property. Stay off my lawn. All this kind of stuff, all this kind of ownership. 1s Over stewardship. And so one of the dreams of MB, which is a dream that's bigger than MB, but just this dream of, like, what if what you have is not yours? Yeah, like, what if you're not the owner of and again, this speaks to this paternalistic kind of idea of, like, oh, I'm so great, and I'd love to be so charitable by letting you live in my backyard. Even that idea is kind of challenged by this idea of, what if it's not your backyard. Actually, if we go back far enough, it is not your backyard. But nonetheless, here we have it in the Beave, and so here it is. But what if it is gods? What if it doesn't belong to us, but it is a collective resource that we have. How could we use it? How might our open handedness and our welcome matter in terms of modeling a different way to live? So that's what we mean even about that not being this charitable idea of rescue, but this mutuality of stewardship. What if we all had something to contribute and we welcomed and made ways for people to contribute? And one of the lessons I've learned from living an open home, where I've had people come from different cultures, newcomers live with me regularly, is how much I have to learn and how much people have to offer me and our family. So, again, this is the ethos of, like, this is not just helping somebody materialistically. This is also recognizing our poverty. So if I was to get really honest about my neighborhood, where I am in Toronto, this is probably one of the whitest neighborhoods in Toronto that I live in right now. There's a great lack of difference here. There's a lack of difference in socioeconomic. There's a lack of difference in culture, background. And that's in a city that, like, prides itself on

22:00  Adam Cresswell

diversity, that totes itself as that.

22:01  Danielle Strickland

Yeah. Yeah. So we always say, oh, Toronto the most diverse city in the world, but my neighborhood isn't. 2s And it doesn't look like it's changing anytime soon. And those ideas, those, like, really deeply embedded ideas of exclusivity and we draw those lines you said this earlier around socioeconomics, but we also draw it around background and culture. But what I want to offer this neighborhood is an invitation to see difference as a strength instead of as a threat. So this is the other their offer of MB is like, what if we actually I could help people catch this idea that the difference is not just economics and it's not a threat. It's an opportunity for us to learn and grow together. So that's one of the things. The other thing is that a lot of the projects I've been involved in, sort of low income housing projects, are often also segregated in that same sense. So my neighborhood is, like, segregated along the higher lines of economic stability and then the lower social housing that we lower socioeconomic social housing we build is often also segregated along the same lines. And so then you get these compound problems, and segregation has never in history led to anything healthy or good. So that's also one of Imbi's ideas, is what if we stopped the segregation on all the lines and we actually started to view difference in community as strength? And how might that change the demographics of our community? How might that offer things that we have which are way beyond just stability and wealth? 1s My neighborhood has some of the lowest rates of violence. It has some of the highest rates of school 1s success scores. It has some of the great, you know, so I'm not only just offering 1s my own family belonging, but the privilege that comes from this community should also be shared. And how do we do that in such a way that 1s doesn't threaten everybody, but actually invites people to participate in a way that's beautiful?

 24:05 Adam Cresswell

Yeah, 1s we've chatted about this at some of our worship services before at the Hub. But this idea that I hold to my bones, that it's baked into 3s the sacred texts in the biblical tradition and into creation itself, that diversity is the idea. And so you don't even have to be a Jesus follower, a faith based person. You can just be someone who loves to go to Algonquin Park and see, just like, the incredible diversity when you get into the natural world to see that and to know that 1s it actually leads to healthier ecosystems when it's like that. And so 5s it's not this kind of pie in the sky idea to understand that we need to operate in the same way, too. And when you talk about the invitation, 3s particularly for neighbors and neighborhoods, what does that look like? Because I think that's probably the thing that then you probably start to bump up against is the whole idea behind Imbi is that this previous phrase in the lexicon of nimby of people who don't want to see things in their backyards, in their neighborhoods, whether it's supportive housing or emergency shelters or whatever it is. How do you start to kind of overcome that barrier, that gap or that resistance from individuals or kind of what can be really challenging is when whole neighborhoods start to kind of band together against those things. How do you start to overcome that resistance? 2s Have people actually even just put their foot in the water and try this different vision for how we can share life together. Yeah, I think this is what we're experimenting with. And so we're still early on the journey. We launched this idea last year during COVID so that was fun. 2s But that's a good time to dream, right, of doing things differently. And that felt reality I talked about. But I think there's a couple of things. So there's some projects that we're working on in partnership with places where the church property is seen itself as the backyard, and it's saying, oh, wait, what if this backyard doesn't belong to our church, but belongs for more and difference and affordable housing? So we're working on some projects in that level where there's many multiple and there's a usage of church space, which I think is a beautiful redemption idea. So that's although some of the dangers of segregation and isolation and like, this problem being solved over here exists there. So when we're working with those projects, we really try to talk through that. 2s And then the backyard strategy of just one at a time. In some ways, what we're trying to do is leverage the independence that is so championed in the suburban model 1s to change it.

 27:06 Danielle Strickland

So because it's not a massive project, because it's not a house that's going to be filled with people, because it's not an apartment complex, it's going to threaten the suburban atmosphere here, because it's in my backyard, then the very construct of its my backyard stay out of it can kind of be used to warp, right? So in some ways there's a clever ideally, this is what we do, is we use the very ethos of its my backyard to change the ethos of its my backyard. And we are early on in the process. So we don't have many builds yet because we're just 1s finalizing architectural design builds. Our first one is going to be in Hamilton. It's just been submitted to the city for a permit. So we're really just piloting this. And what we're asking people right now is for people who are really keen to pilot something, that's what we're asking. So by pilot we mean it's not all finished yet. We haven't figured this out. The idea, though, is spreading as a movement. So it's already begun in Minnesota, where they have ten backyards ready to go and are building them this year again, using all the MB. So what we have done is created like a five part training series for people to begin. So if you're just even thinking, like, what 1s this

 28:22 Adam Cresswell

 would be for an individual or a family or someone who owns property

 28:27 Danielle Strickland

 or a church or a church, and then that might spread through your church, whether or not you do it as together as a project or whether or not people within your church are like I'm thinking got you. Because one of the things we're also trying to champion is this is not like a lonely exercise. It should be done together 2s for the one project with the one backyard. What we've done is we've done the training not just with the backyard owners, but with the backyard dweller. So the MB dweller, the person who is going to be part of that project. And so all of that training and creating and dreaming and sharing and playing, all of those principles that we're trying to build, not just a house, but these beautiful different ways of life, we're doing that together before the actual house is built. So it's not like we build a house and go, hoo, I wonder who we could fill this with. The journey of the image journey is meant to be done together and we're trying to figure out how to do that. Embed in the envy ideal is what we call a circle of support. That's, again, it's just coming out of years and years and years of journey with people who have been vulnerable for affordable housing. Ideally, and this is true of all of us. That's part of one of the realities of poverty, of course, is not just economic. It's also social. So you and I, the reason we don't struggle with houselessness is because if I ever got thrown out of my house, I have at least exactly five people I can call. Yeah. So what we're trying to do is we try to set up the MB dweller to have five people to call, and there's a there's a circle of support that we try to surround each embedweller with, and the homeowner is one of them. So that partnership we get really specific to about what is expected in the shared space of the backyard. So what are the expectations? We drop what we call a covenant, like a contract, where it's like, what's the expectation of the homeowner as well in terms of, like, we say, a minimum of one shared meal once a week where there is actually some shared community, because, again, we're so prone to just set up our own tiny existence. We'll just recreate the problem in our own backyard right.

 30:32 Adam Cresswell

That people could then say, I did my good part, and now my backyard used to be 100 foot depth, and now it's just 80 foot depth, and we put up a little like the kids play over here, and we've just sliced off and kind of annexed things. And that itself being still really counterproductive to this idea of changing how we do life together. The

30:51 Danielle Strickland

good news is that we have not discovered somebody yet that has said, hey, I want to be involved in a pilot that doesn't have somebody in mind for their backyard. Which I think has been really so. I would imagine it's partly that people were attracting to the early days of the project. But most people have some connection with somebody who is vulnerable and whether or not they work at an NGO as well, or whether they're part of a faith community that has that outlet. And so if they're like, OOH, I could see Bill or I could see Joan. We've been really trying to prioritize the people in mind for the projects. We've been trying to prioritize people most vulnerable. 2s Which are for us kids aging out of foster care are one of our deep, deep, deep desires to meet a need of belonging and support, but also autonomous, independent dignity. And like you said earlier, that like that's a hard. So as someone who's had people in my house a lot, that's one of the problems is no matter how gracious and welcoming and hospitable I am, it still feels paternalistic. And so that's part of the idea of creating something that has agency and autonomy and dignity, but also now you're on your own, and too bad for you navigate the world by yourself, but actually you still belong, you're still part of there's still support here. So today, foster care newcomers, single moms. So we've been doing architectural plans for two bedroom sort of tiny houses or garden suites or additional dwelling units, whatever region has different names for these things and just trying to think through each model 1s as its own beautiful, emerging creative enterprise. Right of change.

 32:39 Adam Cresswell

Yeah. 2s You talked about how the Minnesota is at kind of a certain stage of they've got a few that are ready. Hamilton sounds like it's maybe kind of one or two steps behind that. It's just sort of on the precipice of getting sort of the pilot of the pilot set up. 1s We've talked about this in other episodes before that needs differ all over. And so depending on the context 1s of certainly the geographical location where we talk about somewhere like La that doesn't have necessarily winter in the same way, but has its own unique set of circumstances. And in Kw here where we live, there need to be multiple approaches 1s to confronting this issue of housing injustice and to moving us closer to these just ways of doing housing. And can you talk a little bit about how between locations or maybe even within something like Hamilton itself? Like in Kw, there's great stuff happening with the working center and the University ave housing, and there's also a better tent city which has had some decent partnership with the region coming in. Can you talk about, even within a location, how needs can differ and 1s what it looks like to re really understand. 3s The need to walk in relationship with individuals and communities in different places. Because I think the thing that is tempting, and I'll say this personally for me is I just wish there was just one solution because then we could just do this thing and we could go into the consumer thing of duplicate it, put on an assembly line, like pump them out and then we solved the problem. But can you talk a little bit about how differing needs with individuals, communities and locations 1s inform or influence the work?

 34:37 Danielle Strickland

Yeah, and I mean, this is one of the frustrations, right, of a long term approach. I do think there are some codifiable things that we could make easier. So I think 1s like, for example, like those architectural plans of one bedroom or studio or one bedroom or two bedroom that are around price points and the people that you want there, 1s those are codifiable. We can use those depending on the specs of the backyard, right. We could probably use those over and over again. It'll speed everything up and make everything more cost effective. The thing you can't codify ever, which is where we get into all the injustice problems in our world, is people. You can't codify people. You can't codify the family that owns the backyard and you can't codify the embedwellers. So again, this has been like we've tried to sort of go hear the people who are most vulnerable that we want to sort of serve, but actually even that, we're pretty loose. Like it's not really our business because that relationship and that connection is the point. 1s And that extended belongings and that circle of support as well is not codified. In other words, if that person, if a person has already an existing relationship with a nonprofit, no matter who that nonprofit is, and it's helpful that nonprofit is part of the circle of

35:51  Adam Cresswell

 support. Yeah, that needs to be

35:53 Danielle Strickland

right? And in these jobs is just to help strengthen those, not to loosen those or replace those in any way. And same as so the homeowners one, maybe they've belong to a faith community. That's a wonderful part of a circle of support. That's actually what's one of the most beautiful things about faith communities even in history, right? Even in what Jesus did, is redefine family, in a way. And one of my favorite verses for envy is Psalm 68, where it says God puts them lonely in family, that this is the idea. There's what people would call instead of a kin, it would be kingdom. 1s Yeah, just that there's this way, like, we are brothers, we are sisters. A beautiful book by Valerie Akira, who's an activist who says her book title is Seen No Stranger, which from her Sikh faith, she says she learned to just rehearse in her mind whenever she would see somebody who she was tempted to other. I don't know that person, she says in her mind, that could be my uncle, that could be my brother, that is my aunt, that is my sister. And she said just that practice, even of seeing people as extended family, has been so helpful for her to posture her life differently. So, again, that's so helpful when you think about the other who are vulnerable for housing. 1s When you were to go, what if it was my uncle? What if it was my aunt? What if it was my sister? What if it was my then you'd be like, oh, well, that changes some things, right? So, again, try to rethink this. So, the circle of support, the only one constant we offer is we have a partnership with Christians Against Poverty, and they offer financial counseling for the MB dweller to create a financial plan. So the other thing is, the MB project ideal is we. Ask people to journey with MB for ten years. So if they are going to do a project with us, we'd like it to be a long term thought process and a project so that there could be all those things like stability and growth. And then we're believing, because we've tasted a little bit of how this works, and that notion of, like, as you open your hands, you receive more, not just give more, that people will just once they catch this, they'll never want to leave it. But the ten year is kind of like, let's think long term and see if we can't change the way that we live. It's going to take a while. It took us a long time to get here, so it's going to take us a while to get out of here.

 38:10 Adam Cresswell

Yeah. And for those who are involved as partners in the project, whether they're dwellers or they're folks who own the property, 2s again, from the outside, to me, that kind of timeline seems completely necessary to also learn how to do this. If you think about if you've ever lived with roommates or started a relationship or moved in with someone, it takes a while to learn those rhythms together of what does life look like together? And so the commitment to be able to 1s push through the rocky the times of learning at the start, the times where seasons of life change, and to be able to still be committed to the relationship and not this very 3s kind of. 1s We have this society that's very prone to as long as it works for me, and then as soon as it doesn't, I can discard. I can discard,

 39:11 Danielle Strickland

right. And put out conflict management. Yeah. And that's part of what NBC's kind of role in many ways is. Not even to build the houses, not even to, but to help train, to help dream, to help make the connections, and then to help those connections keep working. So an MB support would be a regular check in with the partners and to see if this and how we could help. And ideally, I was talking to somebody in the early, early days. I've actually am so thankful for so many people I've talked to over the last few years that have just advised me and given Envy their best practices and pledges of partnership and collaborative energy. There's so many people committed to trying to change things. This must actually be one of the benefits of this podcast for you. It's just seeing the amount of people who know this needs to change or committed to changing it is really beautiful. But one of the things is, I was talking to someone about those worst case scenarios. What if I get somebody in my backyard and I can't get rid of that person and they're toxic? And that's always, literally always comes up.

 40:19 Adam Cresswell

 That's probably the fear that holds a lot of people back from going, it sounds like such a good idea, but I don't know if I could really do it.

 40:52 Danielle Strickland

Yeah, and what if it goes bad? Which is always and again, that goes back to that stereotypical houseless presentation, right? These are what those people are like. As though those people have some sort of definition. But 2s the person that I was talking to, to sort of say, like, should we look at some contractual obligations? And how we bake that into contracts? And things like that, so that it gives people an out or whatever. And I remember this one homeless advocate who's just really experienced and beautiful, and he just said to me, if you've gotten to that point, 1s you failed in your experiment anyway. You're already past the point of relationship and genuine relationship and helping people walk through conflict and getting to talk to each other properly. So it was a really good heads up, because we're like, oh, yeah, we should never get to that point because the whole point of MB is to have this living organism of growth and difference and conflict management and let's walk together and learn. So it was a really good check.

  41:30 Adam Cresswell

Yeah. Okay, so picture me. I'm either 1s let's maybe talk about individuals first, and then we'll talk about what churches. So I'm an individual who has 1s heard about MB or has listened to the podcast, and maybe I'm not someone who specifically says, I have someone in mind, but just says, I love the vision and I'm passionate about doing something. And I now know, okay, this is a commitment, it's a relationship. It's not just sectioning off a piece of my backyard. 1s What would be the first step that someone would take? And do they have to be a lot of the stuff is happening out of Hamilton right now. I know here in Kw there's work being done to kind of get the legislation to 2s permit things like MB, but let's say they're in a place where it can happen. What's the first step that someone can take in reaching out and saying, I'm interested in partnering?

 42:31 Danielle Strickland

Well, you can go to the website Mbhomes.org, so Mbhomes.org and you can contact us. So that's one idea. And say, like, hey. And I think even in the contact form, there's like, I have a backyard and I'm open for this, or, I'm a volunteer and I'd like to help out, or I'd like to fund something. So all of those areas are things. We will be launching a fundraising campaign because for us to do the work to scale that we want to do within the next five years, we need to raise about 60 grand just for proper support staff to make sure that all these circles of support are working and all the things are working. So we'll be doing that really shortly. I think even giving Tuesday, we'll have a bit of an appeal there. We do have a model of support that will eventually be self sustaining, so that's our goal. But probably for the first five years, we'll need some fundraising efforts. 1s Definitely. Start the training. It's free. You can sign up and get all of those training videos, and there's exercises after each training video, and you could begin. So what I suggest is find somebody that you want to take this journey with, whether it's a community, because you want to do this by yourself. So you might be the backyard owner, but you might have some friends that you're dreaming with and imagining with, and they might be part of the funding or the community sort of welcome. Start the training. Or if you're a church leader and you're like, gee, I wonder what this would look like, use the training. Go ahead and use it. There's actually some biblical if you really want a small group study on biblical values, there's a whole Bible based curriculum as well. But on the main website, it's just open to anybody, 1s and that could be a very good beginning. And even those exercises can help you start really tactile thinking through what this might mean and how might this work and what your dream is. And then what we would do is if you contact us and say, I really want to start this process, we would put you in a process, and we would say, okay, what does that look like? Now, what it means is there might be a tiny host older, near you. 1s That could actually do that, or there might be somebody in your church that has those skills and you're going to go together. And then we actually talk through some of the nitty gritty, which is where I always say the devil lives in the details, never in the big ideas. And so that's where all the devil lives, right? In the permits, in the site plans, and in some of the costs. So the financial model is a really interesting thing to walk through. So we're walking through this now. So we make an unashamed plug. If you're you're like a lawyer. Yeah. So if you're like a lawyer who's good at contract and you're a financial person who knows about some financial strategies that might help us navigate this space, please reach out to MB. We would love your help. But we have at the heart of the MB Dweller model is that a portion? So either the dwelling is portable and is owned by the MB Dweller. So that's one model. So that in a sense, it's almost like your first micro house ownership. So in essence, the backyard becomes a lease of the space and the dwelling place is portable and it's owned by its rent to own type of financial model. So that's one idea. The second idea, which is the one that we're piloting right now, is that the place is permanent and it's financed by the person who owns the house. So the benefit of that, of course, is that they can get financing for that. But two, when it's all said and done, having an additional dwelling unit on your property will increase your value of your property, right? So it's actually kind of a win for the property owner anyway. So we're sort of recognizing that. And then the rent is not only affordable, but a portion of that affordable rent goes into an equitable trust for the embeddweller. So that the whole every, no matter what the model of the project is, the Embedweller is accruing equity. That's really important for us, because that's one of the problems with people who live in perpetual housing issues and property, is that there's never a way to escape it. 1s And so built into the emb model is some sense of equitable investment. So your investment in this house is also for your future. 1s So that's one of the things also that we're modeling through. So I would say what you start doing is you start doing the training, you start gathering community, and then you actually start working out a plan. 1s And already at this stage, again, what would say is we would encourage you to think of the person who is the actual person, not just the issue, the affordable housing. We're going to help with the issue. Yes, great entry point, but we never want you to stay there long because it's personal. I want you to think of the person who do you have in mind for this? Who are your connections with like minded organizations who might be that one member of that circle support you're creating in that situation that would have somebody in mind for your family and begin to make those connections now. Begin to offer that potential dream together, not as a promise, but as like. Would you even consider being part of this dreaming thing with us? And we're going to see where this goes. 1s So that's a big one. There are two models of tiny houses right now. One are permitted and the others are not. So where we've been stuck, the vast majority of tiny houses being sold right now, which, by the way, are gazillions, most tiny house builders, can't keep up with the demand. They're all not being permitted. That's the only way that's happening. There are very few of them. Like, a handful are actually permitted for some sort of residential use. So that's been a very fascinating learning curve for us at MB. We have not wanted to go the non permit route because we've want there to be permanence. We don't want to put anyone who's already vulnerable in more vulnerabilities. 1s That said, I'm getting tired of waiting. And I also struggle, and this might be something I'm asking you, Adam, is I struggle with the future is not here yet, and we're going to help bring it, which often is we're stepping into a future that doesn't exist. So when we think about this like additional dwelling units or all these sort of things, this is a future that doesn't exist yet. And we all know we're headed there, but we're not there yet. So my prophetic side of me,

 48:42 Adam Cresswell

that's the basis of what it means for those of us come from student Jesus traditions. And we have a whole group that's reading Walter Bergamin right now. What does it mean to live into the prophetic the world that is not yet the kingdom that's here and yet not yet here too? What is that like?

 48:59  Danielle Strickland

Yeah. There's a part of me that wonders if this might be. How so? There is a part of me that wonders, instead of waiting for permission from cities that don't know what to do or how to do it, if there isn't a possibility of a movement that says we know this is risky and potentially agitating to cities that aren't there yet, but that's what we want to do. So there's a part of me that's kind of wondering if we shouldn't maybe start thinking that way. And then there's also this other part of you, which is the part right now that India is we're trying to go through existing systems. We're trying to push through first one out the door, trying to pilot these things in good ways where we're making good decisions with policies that exist and people that are trying to make good policies. So in my heart it's divided. I think both are good. We're only going in one direction right now. But I am increasingly agitated and irritated enough in the waiting, 1s starting to think through what it might mean. 1s I had an idea the other day where the process was being held up in permitting. And I thought, what if everybody that's associated with this project just came and camped out in this backyard and said to the, you know, newspapers, we're all staying here until the permit gets through. And what if there was a way we could actually begin to do that in communities everywhere, to say, like, we're going to camp out in this backyard with our person who is camping out, because this is crazy. Crazy. This is unsustainable. This is not okay. So there is that thing growing in me. So I'll keep you posted on where we go with that. But if anyone's as agitated as me, it is like, maybe we should just go ahead. Let me know.

 50:35 Adam Cresswell

 Yeah. And I think that's 2s living in Kw, 1s I haven't yet come across any body of government that's really fully invested. But Kw has had some progress and strides in the municipal and the regional level, at least, admitting that there's a problem, a crisis that they need to do something about. But, I mean, the frustration that looks like particularly coming. I lived in Toronto for years, too, and just the state of affairs in Toronto seems just so far from being able to find sustainable solutions to be able to live into this restorative justice model. And so 2s I think that that's for and maybe this is one of the places that we'll kind of come to as a close is one of the last things I'll ask you is for those people living in a faith community or a church leader or a community organization that isn't faith based, 1s that knows that there's a group around them or that they're in leadership of and that they want to be able to in some way shape. Or form advance housing justice? 2s What would you say to them, to someone who's in that leadership position or a community who, again, is saying, yeah, we don't want this to just be an issue? We don't want to just be and that's the tension with this podcast, too, is we don't want to just go. I listened, I learned, and great, now I know more stuff. But I actually want to take I want to put my faith into action. What would you say to those groups of people, whether faith based or not, at what a step is it for them finding ways to raise attention? Is it finding ways to leverage their partnerships? What can groups do, churches or otherwise, to really step into this prophetic witness?

 52:35 Danielle Strickland

Yes. I mean, I would say all those things you mentioned, but I would just say this caveat proximity is power. 1s Proximity is power. So we often want to try to make a difference from a distance and it never works because it doesn't have any impact. And I would say this is true personally as well. So you can't just fight against homelessness without having some proximity to it. So what I would suggest, and I know it sounds crazy because you should be able to but I'm just saying in my experience and in the biblical witness proximity is power. That's why Jesus always goes out of his way to get in the way of injustice and oppression. Literally. If you look geographically of the way Jesus goes, there's one passage in Loop, it's one of my favorites where it says on his way to Jerusalem, jesus went to the porter places of Samaria and Galilee and you're like wait a minute, that is not on the way. But it is on the way to Jerusalem. If Jerusalem is the place where you die to yourself, where it's the place of the cross. So it is on the way to the cross but it is not on the way geographically on a map. And that's the thing is you will never stumble in to fighting injustice and oppression. You will always go there intentionally. And often the most powerful way to go there is to go out of your way to get in the way of real people who are struggling. So I would say, even if you're a leader of, like, find your way to volunteer. Find your way to get somewhere to mentor someone who struggles with home, houselessness. Find your way to get into the face and connect. With the people. Because that's going to be not only sustaining and powerful and difference making in your own life, but it's going to have the most powerful impact when you try to make a difference from proximity. So I do that and that often is the thing you don't have time for. That's the very thing that we're disliked but actually that's the thing that has the most power attached to it. So I would struggle to make that sort of a priority in whatever the community is to actually have proximity to the people who are most affected by this reality and then get to work in all those different ways. So training there's all kinds of places that you can get to work with. Advocacy, contact your government, go look, research the permitting process. Like listen to the rest of this podcast, call somebody or reach out to your city councilor and say this is an issue. When a guy came around my neighborhood recently running for governance governing things, he promised me that he would not let any condos be built in this community. And I asked him why he's. You know, I asked him, Why tell me more about that. Why is that why are you running on that? What on earth? How would like, how is that benefiting people who can't afford housing? It just kind of grilled him at the door, and it was enough to kind of put him off his game, because he just assumed that I would be great. I would feel good about that, like most of my neighbors, I suppose. So I think even just little tiny things like that matter where you just bring up the question. 1s Yeah. And you think differently, and then, by all means, leads don't just talk. Walk. Don't just talk. And that's one of the greatest ethos. As a faith leader myself, as a Jesus follower, what I want and be to be is a demonstration of good news. And I think the world is so tired of hearing people talk about good news, and they just haven't seen it. But when you see it, it's infectious. You're like, like, oh, tell me more about that. And that's what I would love for Imb and for people who say they follow Jesus, particularly to live lives that demonstrate what the good news is. And I think we'd need way less proclamation if we focused, at least for a season, on demonstration.

 56:13 Adam Cresswell

Yeah, 1s that's beautiful. Especially for those of us who are coming from Trinity Church, Kitchener, and from The Hub as folks behind this podcast, who are who seek to be living in the way living in the kind of 1s particular life that Jesus is inviting us into. To be I just love how you put that to be. Demonstrations of the good news, I think is beautiful. And I think that's a perfect kind of place to sort of land. I'm super grateful, Danielle, for you again with all the stuff that you're involved in making time today to come and chat and for the work that you're doing, 1s not just in the organizations that embed that's working in places. Like Hamilton or has connections in Minnesota. But as you talked about of being a neighbor there in your neighborhood in Toronto, and in finding ways to practice that kind of life behind 2s the scenes, so to speak, in the places that are just between you and your neighbors and in the way that you open up your homes. And I want to shout out people in our community like Dave Small and Lance Wright and Peggy Wright and their family who have lived they'll is kind of lives, too, where their homes have been. 2s Gifts and blessings and places to share for many years with people in our community. And there's so many of us that can continue to look at how can we live not just in our groups, in our home churches, in our suburbs, but how can we actually live 1s our lives, our day to day lives, demonstrating that good news and offering space and and offering hospitality to people in that countercultural way. Thanks to

  58:04 Danielle Strickland

we would love so much to see MB come to Kingston. So if anyone wants to lead an MB project, just let us know. We'll support you as much as we can. And then the last thing I was going to say just is that Brad Gerstech once recently said to me, I've stopped telling people I'm a Christian. And I say instead, ask my neighbor.

  58:22 Adam Cresswell

That's beautiful. And

 58:23 Danielle Strickland

 that's a good I feel like that's what you're up to, and I love it. So keep it up, Adam.

58:28  Adam Cresswell

Thanks. Yeah. Shout out to the online SubHub who's reading through a more Christ like word right now. That's by your sex. Excellent. Danielle, maybe the last thing, how can people will post the information for your website and for MB homes? How else can people keep up with what you're doing? Is it the social media? Is it the website? Is it emailing you?

 58:52 Danielle Strickland

Yeah, it's in all the places. If you get to my website, Danielstickland.com, all the things are there. And you can navigate all the complexity of my Add entrepreneurial life and click what you're interested in.

 59:06 Adam Cresswell

And you said there's a fundraising campaign coming up soon. 1s Is there a date or a place people can address their attention for upcoming projects, specific kind of projects for MB?

 59:18 Danielle Strickland

 Yes. So on the website, there is already a place where you can give. So if you feel so compelled or if you want to contact us and think about a bigger gift, if you're listening to this and you have some sort of financial capacity even as a business, or you want to be. Partner. We would love to talk to you. We're looking for that these days,

 59:37 Adam Cresswell

for all the I know, there's all the folks listing from different United churches. Faith communities are made up of tons of different people with tons of different career paths. And so, like Daniel said, if you're someone who is on the legal side of things or on the finance side of things, or just as a faith leader who has a bunch of people in their church who are passionate about this, MB might have need of some of your parishioners, some of the people in your community. So 1s a huge demonstration of the good news is happening through MB and through Danielle. I'm super grateful for you joining us today, and I hope we get a chance to talk again and we'll make sure that people are following what you are doing and what MB is doing and other great things like amplify and infinitem and all the great stuff that you're doing. We're really grateful to have you today.

 60:28 Danielle Strickland

Bless you guys. Thanks very much. That for? Winter is coming. I'm Adam Creswell, and we will chat with you next time. Thanks for listening.